I have had an ongoing debate with a friend of mine over the last 5 or so years about the first 4 Metallica albums, as to which 3 are the ones to run up the flag poll. I have been holding the line with 1,2, and 3 while he has been pushing for 2,3, and 4. Anyone who wants argue for anything beyond those 4 records is a complete ass and needs to purge themselves from this life immediately.
So there is no argument over 2 and 3. We agree they are the 2 best albums ever made by Metallica. I also think that we can agree that of those 2 'Master Of Puppets' is the one, the pinnacle, the crowning glory of there musical exploration in total.
What we are left with is a debate on Cliff Burton's influence on the band and whether actually physically having him playing the music is more effective then the band realling in the wake of his death.
Before I go any further and before people start commenting on how much they have fallen, let me say, that in my opinion they get an eternal pass. The music created on those 4 albums is beyond reproach and since none of us have any idea the horrors that befell them as human beings after his extremely violent death, we can not judge how we would have handled it.
As I said before I have been of the 1.2.3. school for sometime and I think on re listening I can tell you why first of all there a couple crystallizing pinnacle moments on that first record particularly the bass solo(...take 1) and the chugaluga breakdown mid way through 4 Horsemen(which will never be beat in my book for simplicity and dynamic impact). The overall effect of the downstroke guitar playing of Hetfield is revolutionary and a lesson that I took to heart. Now as I stand here now I am caught in a wash of memories as I re listen to these 4 records, and I must say that most of them have to do with drugs. Some of them do not...I remember sheepishly selling bootleg Metallica demos in the parking lot of Arco Arena in Sacramento with none other then Steve Von Till, Doug Dirt(Oakland celebrity), our friend from Canada Jim(who went on to join The Exploited at some point). Have you heard the demo? The one with Dave Mustaine on it? It is great, but is hilarious lyrically and at times vocally. Anyway...I digress.
The primary issue that I have always had with 4. is that the production is horrific(although after listening to 30 seconds of St. Anger perspective is achieved, 4. ain't that bad in fact it has a certain charm kinda like a hospital cafeteria) and the album led to the mainstream breakthrough and then led to the obvious downturn and emotional vacuum that brought us the 5th album and all the subsequent attempts. Upon my re listening I am struck with the depth of 4. The songs are raw and the emotions are on crushing. There are beautiful juxtapositional moments and devastating riffs abound. 4. is something to be hold it is and will always be the last breath that Clifford Lee Burton had creatively in this band. Although I'm sure that his shadow is still within there reach, I have always thought that space that he filled within them as people was a hole that could never be touched again.
Let the discussion begin...1. or 4.?
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47 comments:
great thoughts on "...And Justice For All", man. it's worth revisiting from time to time for sure - but I'm solidly in the "Kill 'Em All" camp on this subject - "Whiplash" alone would make that the case, I think...
Pure raw energy, the first 1. But, for a band to come back from something as devastating as a band member's death and release an album like the 4th one, that's saying something. That album solidified them in the game because it made them show their experimental side without comprimising a thing. 4 showed their true grit....and then they totally dropped the ball after that a compromised that sound. Oh well. Listened to "Blackened". That heavy breakdown, the real stompy, fucking march of doom. That's good stuff, right there.
My 2 cents:
Kill 'Em All is a great album but not really a Metallica album so much as a bunch of kids adding some much needed bottom to NWOBHM.
Ride The Lightning is near perfect but "Escape" kind of kills the flow.
Master is the crown jewel, even the filler is awesome, the arrangements are, well, masterful. At this point Metallica had riffs that most band would base a career on just bedding the solos.
ANd Justice is ungood, the arrangements and playing are convoluted and the as for the production, it signaled the birth of the ultra clicky wet sack bass drum sound. I can't fault them though, it was an album made under complete duress. If I had to choose between 1 and 4 I'm going with 1 because it is just so direct. But Master is still the one I reach for most often and still turns me into an air-guitaring teenage dirthead all over again.
definitely can't choose between one and four. i love and justice for all forever because of its weirdness and i just cant deny the songs. i suppose if i had to choose it would be kill em all, just because of how devastatingly brutal and ass-kicking it is. and justice for all is great from a more complex riff composition stand point i think, too.
still, kill em all has the balls.
I'll stick with 4, because of "To Live is to Die." That's one of the most spectacular songs they ever wrote.
But it is a complicated dilemma.
It's interesting how rapidly technology introduced new production techniques, that today sound horrible. It was only two years between albums 3 and 4. I was listening to Metal Church's first record yesterday, and thinking about how great it sounded, being recorded back in 85'. By '88/89, almost everything sounded bad.
I'll go with four because ...And Justice for All and Blackened are just too good. I'm actually not a huge MOP fan, prefer Ride the Lightning. I grow weary of Metallica, but there is no doubt those first four albums were good.
I am going with numero uno. There is often an energy in a bands first album that I love, especially when its produced on a shoestring. You've got people that have been waiting all their lives to express it, they finally have the chance, and it just pours like a broken damn. Kill 'Em All has that incredible, hard to describe, energy. The problem with 4 is that you can feel it softening. Don't get me wrong though, I do love 4. I am not convinced that there is a definite answer on this one.
If i want to hear some Kill em all style i would prefer Exodus's Bonded By Blood.
Master of puppets is some kind of a holy monumental album and their best!!
Now..number 4 is great but has many ups and downs.Anyway,i give it props for the best crunchy guitars ever!!
Dyer's eve? Phantom lord? I will take 1 AND 4 with me to the grave. I wouldn't be who I am without either of those records. Both!
MASTER. MASTER.
Probably the last song that will play in my head when I'm about to die and there's nothing left to do except roll over songs I know in my mind.
Kill Em All never did it for me, so I stand firmly by And Justice For All... which despite all of Metallica's transgressions since, stands as one of the best metal records of all time.
4. 3. 2.
i've never been big on the production on 4 either but some of those riffs... fuck. plus i think lyrically its where james really hit his stride some of that shit is just cripplingly dark and really effectively captured a band writhing in the agony of irreparable loss.
4 was definitely the death of that metallica everthing since has been post mortem nerve function.
I have to pick 4. It was my first Metallica album and i've always been heartstruck by the first albums i've bought by some artists: Tom Waits' "Rain Dogs", "Let Love In" by Nick Cave and "Ghost Reveries" by Opeth being some examples.
The production - wow, it's quite amazing that a record that sounds so .. boring, is still judged as the band's commercial breakthrough. That should say something about the quality of the songs...Blackened!
2, 3, 1, 4
RTL is easily my favorite Metallica record and that will never change. I agree that Escape is the weakest song on the record (and also the only song on the record that Cliff Burton doesn't have a writing credit on).
Without that little sirened glitch of an addition, the album is back to back brilliance. You can also find on the internet, a slowed down version that somebody ripped from the vinyl version at 33 RPM. That in itself is better than anything they have done since the 90s.
Master of Puppets is a great record as well, notably, Orion, The Thing That Should Not Be (awesome solo), Battery, and Master of Puppets.
Kill Em All is the epitome of thrash metal. I don't care if they weren't the first band to play thrash. This is the best representation of thrash there is. Followed closely by killing is my business and business is good.
...And Justice For All starts with one of my all time favorite metallica songs ever. Aside from that there is little to listen to. Shortest Straw, Harvester of Sorrow, and Dyers Eve, are great songs but next to their earlier records they just don't compare.
Cop out, yes, but I would choose both, as they are very relevant and in completely different ways, which makes it impossible for me to favour either of them over the other. 'Kill 'Em All' has the youthful exuberance, it's the sound of a band "arriving" and with that cheeky grin of knowing, consciously or not, that they are doing something revolutionary. Not only in music, but in attitude as well, it's legendary. '...And Justice For All', however, despite its one fault (the bone-dry production, man, I still can't find the charm even today), is the sound of a band matured, grown-up, scarred even, with the necessary baggage to be able to launch themselves into writing lengthy and complex songs. It's an entirely different album with an entirely different mood, and it even has some of the best and most underrated songs of their entire career ('Blackened', 'Dyers Eve'). To put it into a funny perspective, it's like asking if one would prefer 'Pain Of Mind', or 'Times Of Grace', for example. What would you choose, Scott? :)
Times Of Grace without a doubt. Pain Of Mind sucks.
Am I the only person in the world who doesn't like Metallica at all?
They have never done anything for me -but I am stupid enough to still buy their albums in the hope that maybe I will find something. But I never do.
Maybe 1 would be the one I get more out of -mainly because of 'Seek and Destroy'.
Hope I haven't offended any metallica fan out there. But if I have...tough shit.
It's not offensive Milla, but I wonder why you'd spend money on a band you don't like. That's what illegal downloading is for - especially for motherfuckers like Metallica who don't give two shits about their fans.
Haha, yes, I should have seen that coming. Should have chosen two Neurosis albums you actually like!
I would say "...and justice for all" despite the horrible production (the drums!!!), but only because it has incredible songs like "blackened", "one", "to live it to die", "dyers eve".
"kill 'em all" has a stronger tracklist, no filler...it's a hell of a debut but it lacks depth and variety, in comparison.
Krumbled Kookie:
oh, I would by the cd second or third hand in London shops for £3.00 max, just for the reason you said: cos Metallica don't really give a shit about their fans, so I never buy their records new.
My husband likes them, so he ends up listening to the cds.
I grew up listening to 4 before I listened to 1, so I glommed onto those songs and that's who Metallica was for me.
1 has an energy that can't be matched, even by 2 or 3, but 4 has something else to it. Something slightly more ethereal.
A few months ago, I listened to 4 in its entirety (mind you, I was under the influence). The album felt like a homage to their fallen friend. The songs literally sounded like it was only Hetfield and Ulrich playing. No Kirk on the solos, no bass on any track (and we know that part's true). They played the songs as a lament, one last honor.
After that, they said 'Fuck it' and sold their souls. They treated their new bassist like a bitch, wrote half-assed songs, and never truly recovered.
Again, just my influenced experience.
The first one will always have a place near my heart. My older brother introduced me to Metallica i my early teens, and we used to listen to all their records, but later in my life something happened that gave me a special relationship with this record.
In 2002 I was living in India, on a small island in the Sunderbans delta south of Kolkata (formerly Calcutta). It was far out in the countryside - no electricity, no books, and no music. After having spent almost five months on this dark and crowded island, I discovered on one of my rare trips into Kolkata that there was a music store where Western music was sold.
I bought Kill 'Em All on cassette.
Being alone (for perhaps the first time in months) in a small apartment in the city, playing the wobbly tape at full volume on a crappy mini-stereo whilst running around playing airguitar and headbanging frantically with a pair of pyjamas pants tied around my head was one of the most cathartic experiences I've ever had.
It was the perfect music to release me, if only for half an hour, from all the boredom and alienation that was my daily life. To this day I am sure that this (along with my diary) helped me to keep a grip on my sanity amongst extreme poverty, insane heat, floods and Bengal tigers.
It taught me that wherever you go in the world, always, ALWAYS bring enough music to get you through.
As a bassist, i feel obligated to choose 'Kill em All'. Picking Anesthesia appart (as well as Orion from 'Master...')by ear is how i first learned to play bass. That being said, 'And Justice For All' has had a much bigger impact on my life. Being a glutton for emmotionally charged music, the anguish evoked on 'and Justice...' is quite powerfull. The song, Dyer's Eve in peticular was pretty much my anthem as my middle school self tried to deal with splitting of my parents.
So, i guess i also take a fence-riding possition. I have debated at length with friends how 'And Justice...' may have turned out if Cliff had been alive...
I won't say it's their best, but Kill'em All is my Metallica fav all time, you can't have more fun listening to an album than Kill'el All gives you.
Great question for a forum. The first four records are all madness and great pleasures to hear from time to time. I think that knowing what happenned from 5 on makes the first four records of their career even better.
The first Metallica record I got was 4. I was eight and it blew my mind so I may be a bit bias toward it. Going back and listening throughout the twenty years since then I feel that 4 showed the product of a band pushing themselves musically from both a technical (especially Mr. Ulirch, and not just because of the double bass stuff in One, but overall) and composition aspect. The opening track is pure, raw, and fucking brutal. But the spirit doesn't carry through the record. One can only imagine (probably without success) the writing process for "Justice" at such a time in the lives of four people.
Master, on the other hand, completely burns through and through. I feel that it was the pinnacle in their career because everything (not so much for the best) changed after that record. It was the record of Metallica as a solid force before the issues (that have been so well documented) came to fruition. Almost as if Master was recorded by a band before the band became a business. They were just full of attitude and it really showed on 3 that they had found the best way to let that attitude out as a combined force.
So after all the blah, all four are great, but Master is where it's at.
thanks for this
oops, I didn't even answer the fucking question. I like the power and angst of 1 but the power and angst of 4 is much more matured and cohesive. I am an album person at heart so I will have to go with 4. But, as I said earlier, sometimes it's a bands later catalouge that helps me to appreciate more the early developments. So 1 has that going for me.
Shit, good question. Now I am going to listen to them all night long.
I prefer ...And Justice For All over Kill 'Em All. I have never been into the real trebly, fast-fuck-your-face-off type of thrash that was on that CD. If I want to listen to that kind of music, I'll listen to punk -- which I do, a lot. And there's no denying that KEA has some great material, but in terms of preference ...AJFA overrides it. The atmosphere that ...AJFA created, plus their experiments with speed and technicality put it over the top. I usually skip around KEA, but I listen to ...AJFA all the way through, and can do so multiple times in a day.
I didn't even know this was open to debate. I can remember listening to Kill 'Em All on cassette at summer camp. Now That's a topic for discussion; Metal on cassette vs. cd. No need to talk about vinyl, everyone already knows that it's the best format.
that's is very easy disscussion because even though And justice.... has some great riffs you nailed it on the head with the fact the production is awful; in fact it is so dry that it almost pulls the moistier out of my mouth. There are times when 1 is my favorite a well; it's raw but played with out Kirk's fruity style. I will say that Orion is always my favorite song even with out vocals. However, listen to the drum rolls in Masters...; there fairly Vanilla. With out rambling to long and getting to the point Metallica stil may be good if Cliff em' all was alive. He was the guy that kept the ego in check!
I am a huge fan of yours as well as your band, I just wanted to write and tell you, you know you different priorities when your best friend crashes your car and all you can think about is your favorite Neurosis shirt getting cut off you was the worst thing that happened that day. This happened to me Oct.09 in Cheyenne, WY on the way to see Mastodon in Denver. We didn't even get to see the concert.
4 is far better then 1. KEA has the problem of being a bit of a demo compilation; certainly the difference between say Hit the Lights, S&D and the later songs (No remorse, Phantom Lord) are pretty big. AJFA, as other dudes have said, is a scarred, angry, gritty motherfucker of an album. It also has Frayed Ends of Sanity, which is far above anything on KEA.
I'm a fanboy, yes, but I feel compelled to mention that really, Load was a fairly big risk and if they cut 5 or so songs from that, a similar amount from Reload and made it one album then it would be freakin' awesome. I mean come on; House that Jack Built? Outlaw Torn? Shit is epic.
It goes like this and has for a long time.
Metallica made three good albums
1, 2, and 3 and 4 make one completely great record.
Now, which of those come in 1st 2nd and 3rd depends on my mood...but normally it's 2.
Do I like food or water? I received a cassette tape in late 1983 from a friend who traded tapes with people. One tape in particular he got was one titled "Metal up your ass". Nothing was the same after that day. I bought #1 soon after that. Jump in the fire EP, etc.. Then #2 came out. All the way to #3. The day Cliff died was dark.I knew again that nothing would be the same after this. #1 was head splitting and I think probably the best "heavy" album of all time. #2 was evolution. #3 was the master piece. I agree, nothing past that was worth a hill of beans. I understand that death is an altering event, to put it lightly, but #4 ,was to me, a confused, funeral procession pushed by exhaustion and persistence. If I had to choose, then I would take #3. #1 is very close though. It is to me, like food or water. #4 I think is white chocolate. Good, but missing something. Somewhat sweet, but it is not chocolate. Those days of youth have past, but the memories remain. This was a great topic. Thanks for bringing it up Scott. Take care
Personally, I have to pick Justice, Kill em all does not go with out meret. But specifically speaking to one track on justice. "To Live is to Die" not only is it burtons last track, but I feel the way the song is arranged speaks emotionally and reminiscently to everything the band had gone threw up to this point, Starting off heavy and resilient, and then moving to a very melancholy state, emotionally reminiscent to what anyone morning the loss of cliff would be feeling. After this somber break it seems to come back heavy as ever and triumphant. The only real disappointment is that the emotion didnt carry on to the albums past that.
4, without hesitation & with no excuses. Am I a dick?
From a purely thrash standpoint, which anyone engaged in this debate of "which are the best 3 of 4 albums before the 5th" must understand:
It would have to be 3, 2, 1...
...And Justice For All was the first I'd ever heard by Metallica. This was during a mountain trip in Caracas, Venezuela, when I was 12 in my uncle's truck with my brother and my cousins... left an impression on me to this day.
However...
Kill 'Em All doesn't meander or roam or have time to mentally tackle a difficult emotion; that is thrash. It really depends on what you value; intensity/immediacy or exploration/desperation.
To me, the essential early Metallica listening experience involves a feeling of "fiery ice" or "icy fire" and "breaking out": 4 represents the feeling of "ash" or "uncertainty" and "lashing out," which to me is at the heart of emo/nu-metal music and devoid of color.
The loss of Cliff was very apparent in 4 as he was so integral in balancing out the forces (i.e. egos) at work, not to mention the effect of his expertise in improvisational songwriting disappears in the other players after this point.
(Personally, I also prefer the first 4 VoiVod records to their latter, "experimental" works... but that's another subject)
My personal opinion is this:
1. Master of Puppets is the golden standard. Best written album by far, but...
2. The first two are far more important. Kill 'Em All set the standard for Bay Area Thrash, & Ride the Lightning helped thrash move past the fast-paced party boundaries even more than Puppets did, cause this was the FIRST of that style, whereas Puppets was a more refined & perfected version of the same format, BUT...
3. Ride the Lightning is slightly flawed (I don't mind the song, but Escape sounds like it's from ReLoad).
With all that said, Justice & Kill 'Em All both take the cake for me out of their collection as personal favourites. I understand that Justice has less impact as the others, but I love it for how crushing it is. It's without doubt the heaviest musically & lyrically, but even though I understand the arguements in regards to production, I actually like the production cause it completely lacks any attempt of emotion, which makes this aggressive record almost feel even darker with a sense of nihilistic hopelessness.
Kill 'Em All is also the funnest album, which is why it sits so high for me.
I almost prefer Lightning to Puppets cause the dynamics sound more fresh & experimental, whereas Puppets obviously was a contiuation of that sound. Only thing is, Puppets is better.
3.
I think their best songs are on MOP but all the songs on RTL were good along with the same type of classics on MOP. Not that there were bad songs on MOP but just not as memorable as RTL.
Kill em All was a great album but no one really knew how to record this kind of music yet, not that RTL wasn't too reverby but it sort of fit with the entire feel of the record better than it did on Kill em all. And kill em all just sounded younger with all the bluesy riffs. Their sound hadn't matured yet....A young wine.
Agreed, the production on And Justice for All was ridiculous. I liked that album when it came out but the first three are the only ones I still listen to.
The Black Album can suck it.
Hey Scott, first time checking your blog, had to leave a comment for i too was a member of that ill fated sales team in Sacramento. I dont think we sold one of those tapes I remember nobody believed that there was anything on them.
Not the fist time I had been roped into selling demos with Von Till, homeboy vastly overestimated the apetite for demos amongst the general public. I think we were probably just selling them too cheap for such a rare tape but speaking for myself my aspiration for the project didnt stretch past a few 40s of O.E. Thanks for the memories,and 3,2,1. Tim Ording
Sorry, had to delete the last post. Wrong link.
This is the link to the "Justice" recording with Jason's bass tracks turned up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAvwod7BBK0.
Hope you enjoy it.
um? the chugga chugga in four horsemen IS the main riff from CHILDREN OF THE GRAVE by Black Sabbath, who incidentally wrote all the good riffs in metal. All metal riffs are based on the early sabbath LPs. Iron Maiden's whole gallop is Children of the Grave.
Additonally, Tony Iommi of Sabbath started the whole downpicking riff thing as a whole.
Slayer does it better than james.
4. lacks sophistication and focus. Burton was the only real musical theory min in the band. After his death they really proved they werent much without him
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